Сферический ВК в вакууме@Gargron You haven’t reversed the massive dent in the trust and trauma for those on the receiving end however. Apologies are important, but they wash over quickly. Where is the evidence that they will learn, and that similar mistakes won’t be made. “Moderator actions can be appealed & reversed” is hardly a guarantee of safety.
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47 comments
Izzy Jayasinghe
@Gargron @mikebabcock “White men doing their best”: fills you with so much confidence. Especially when they reply out of turn.
Michael T Babcock
@i_jayas
David Cooper
@mikebabcock now might be a good time to educate yourself instead of asking someone else to do the work for you.
Michael T Babcock
@cooplogic
David Cooper
@mikebabcock, first, making a philosophical statement about someone’s actual strife is marginalazing their concerns.
David Cooper
@mikebabcock The mastodon site claims that the network is “safe for all”. If the safety measures are used as a way to attack minoritized groups, then not only is the system not safe, but it’s mechanism for “safety” is being used to harm.
David Cooper
@mikebabcock also, here is a list of some resouces so that you can educate yourself, if you are interested:
Andreas K
@i_jayas The difference from centralized systems is that nobody forces you to use this specific website. Run literally your own instance. Then the only thing that can happen to you is that people block you. Shrug.
Rich Burroughs :kubernetes:
@yacc143 @i_jayas @Gargron @mikebabcock That’s too late. Black folks are going to the big instances because that’s where a lot of people go, and they are getting alienated. We can’t expect new users to know what instances are the “good” ones.
Michael T Babcock
@richburroughs I have a basic life philosophy of fixing things I can fix, instead of the ones I can't:
Rich Burroughs :kubernetes:
@mikebabcock I was replying to the person who said that Black folks should just make their own server. I hope I don’t have to explain to people what a problematic message that is. I don’t know specifically what needs to be done to improve the moderation. I don’t know enough about what’s happening to say.
Rich Burroughs :kubernetes:
@mikebabcock What I can tell you is that Black folks are seeing these misfires and some don’t want to come near the platform. I have a lot of Black friends I follow on Twitter and very few of them have come to Mastadon. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.
David Cooper
@yacc143 most of us can’t run our own instance. I’m not sure that suggesting that it’s the job of the oppressed to fix the problems is the best stance here.
Kat Kime 🚢
@yacc143 @i_jayas @Gargron @mikebabcock Okay, but I'm pretty confident Eugen's goal isn't to build a de-facto whites-only instance. The complaints were delivered to Eugen because the complaints are about *this* instance "Deal with racism or go someplace else" might work for you, but not for Eugen's team That's why the staff is doing something about it, and that's why his users will continue to deliver feedback
DELETED
@i_jayas Firstly, why do you presume that the moderation team is white? Germany is more diverse than you might think. Secondly, trying to silence @mikebabcock is the exact thing you are criticising @Gargron of doing. This is an open platform and everyone may participate, so long as they do not post hate speech. Prejudice and racism is not a one-way street.
Izzy Jayasinghe
@mikebabcock@floss.social @GlowingLantern @Gargron Go and read about the post that was removed from mastodon[dot]social. If you have, and still don’t understand, you are part of the problem.
huardsmith
@i_jayas @Gargron @GlowingLantern where can we read these “posts” (toots?)? It’s not obvious from this thread (no initial toot with the one in question). Maybe I’m being dense in my searching.
Sibrosan
@i_jayas @Gargron @mikebabcock What makes you think this is about “White men doing their best”? Even if all the moderators are actually biologically male and have a light tone of skin, that doesn't mean they are, for this purpose, "white men".
Ms. Penny 🐝 Oaken
@i_jayas @Gargron Accountability and having a positive, articulable, and enactable plan for improvement (to counter & prevent future issues) is an important skill for leading any team, especially a team that impacts trust & safety.
Izzy Jayasinghe
@leopardboy Matt, you are the 142792th man to slide into my mentions to tell me that. Well done. Next.
Thomas Guss
@leopardboy so we shouldn't demand accountability from moderators? So if my city is full of crime, I shouldn't call out the police chief. I should just move to a new city, and lose my history? Is that what you are saying?
Matt 😎
@flpresets Feel free to hold them accountable, but if you're claiming to be hurt by their behavior, then why would you stay? Because of your history? I've moved instances a few times since I started on Mastondon back in April of this year, and my old accounts are still archived and viewable on the old instances. I was also able to download my full archive each time, so my history has never been lost. There's a reason Mastodon has a migration feature, and it is for situations like this.
Thomas Guss
@leopardboy Do you really not see the problem with your thinking here? That if mods/police act inappropriately, then those affected must flee them? Instead of staying and fixing their community? That's your suggestion? Please think long and hard about why some could be offended by this. Really, think.
Matt 😎
@flpresets Oh, good lord, please let me clarify that I'm not talking about the police. You brought that up in your poor analogy at justifying why you should hold moderators accountable. Mods are not the same thing as police. Moving Mastodon instances is not the same thing as moving to a new city.
Thomas Guss
@leopardboy no its not the same. It's easier to move instances than a city (obviously). But the underlying principle is identical. That's why I used that "poor" analogy. It exaggerated the issue, but at least you finally understood the complaint.
Matt 😎
@flpresets No, sorry, I don't understand the complaint at all. What's the underlying principle that I'm grasping here?
Thomas Guss
@leopardboy when people move servers to avoid inappropriate actions of mods, we enable those mods to continue their behavior. This dynamic is especially terrible when it happens in the biggest servers listed on joinmastodon- new people to mastodon join a server with inappropriate mods. Then get told they should expect no real recourse and need to get out, go somewhere else. They aren't accepted in the big servers. Do you see an issue here? Please get it
jesuiSatire …ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ replied to Thomas
if you want to improve the onboarding system, have at it! other wise, yes "we" get it and yes "we" came to the conclusion that that's how the story goes. and btw, I haven't yet seen one link to the post in question there for from my point of view I read only one rassist and sexist remark completely out of context.
Matt 😎 replied to Thomas
@flpresets No, I disagree with you. I believe staying on an instance sends the message that you're OK with how it's being operated because they know you won't leave, regardless of how much you hold them accountable. Yes, I "get it" and can see why someone would take what I said the way you describe, but that wasn't my point nor am I even on the same instance. Here's another bad analogy. Staying on a bad instance is like staying in a bad relationship for the sake of itself (history).
Izzy Jayasinghe
@tristen Thanks for asking. @PennyOaken sums this up very well. Questions need to be asked on whether there is enough cultural intelligence amongst those moderating the server. For example, are they all middle class cishet white men who cannot distinguish a far-right dog whistle from a the experiences of socially marginalised people. If the answer is “no”, what kind of people need to be recruited into these teams to make them more robust?
Tristen Grant 🖌
@i_jayas So a more diverse moderation team. I can get behind this, but it won't guarantee that mistakes won't happen. With moderation and site management, there should also be different voices/lives, I agree.
Izzy Jayasinghe
@tristen It’s a real start; and I can guarantee that a team with better social intelligence do helluva lot better than hollow apologies. I, like you, want this site to succeed. However the string of complaints relating to racism is just too troubling. It’s a pattern. That’s why I don’t think an apology and call for patience is good enough.
Zeccy
@i_jayas @tristen Not only did he personally apologize, the bans were reversed and he even explained why those things happened. This is the largest instance in mastodon, and also the most outspoken from what I can tell, it's completely valid for moderators to make mistakes. |
@i_jayas @Gargron This presumes there's some future where humans are infallible and won't make mistakes again. This is not one of the options. All you can usually expect from anyone is "doing your best" and "reversing bad decisions."